Ok, that Topic Title is a little contraversial, but, what I want to talk about didn't really fit in one line.
I was just reading the Pantheon Sub-Reddit and I'm not going to link or quote all the comments that lead me here, I'm going to paraphrase into just two points: -
"Downtime is essential to allow for socialising"
"I'm on a headset and am continually socialising. I don't want or need downtime forced on me"
So, what I'm wondering is: -
1) Was downtime only necessary because we couldn't type when fighting in Ye Olde Dayes?
2) Is downtime going to be a big negative when we have group VOIP?
3) In a 'voice group' someone not using voice will be even more isolated than if there was no voice chat at all
4) We can't force people to use voice chat, so how do we resolve this?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I desperately do not want to have groups like I did once the dungeon finder was in WoW, for example. If you stopped to talk for the briefest moment, you could get abuse or even kicked for slowing the group down. I also do not want voice forced on me, but do not want to be sat in silence medding while the rest of the group are strategising and socialising.
There's also the RP thing. Unless everyone in group are professional voice actors and very good at live improv the experience is going to be crappy from a strict RP point-of-view. I'm not a strict RPer, but I can also see it detracting a lot from a more subjective immersion view point, which would be a shame.
I don't think you can release a game today without acknowledging voice chat.
You probably can't find a major guild who isn't using it to socialize and to run raids.
I personally don't see the need for it at the group level and agree that it's completely immersion-breaking. I don't need to know that Elanil the hot female rogue is actually a trucker named Ralph from DesMoine and that his bong needs refilling.
Things I don't want to hear in voice chat but we've all heard repeatedly:
* Whatever it is that you're eating - chew with your mouse closed and use PTT
* Your water pipe or any discussion of your addiction to anything but Pantheon
* Your opinions on the US President or any other RL political issue
* Your medications, psychosis or any other fascinating aspects of your treatment program
* Whatever you're watching on Netflix or listening to on iTunes.
* Your kids screaming that they haven't been fed since Wednesday and they can't find the baby
* Anyone who can't put two sentences together without constant profanity
If we can accept that we only need voice chat for raiding, then voice chat should be something that's handled through the major VOIP services like Discord or Mumble and not something that the devs feel has to be integrated into the Pantheon client.
I don't want to be forced into voice chat either. The Role Play element is largely killed by voice chat, except in very rare cases. The isolation of no one else using text chat means you're not getting instructions from the group leader or providing input to group decisions and you've lost the Massively Multiplayer community aspect. You started off with an MMORPG and it's been reduced to simply an OG by killing off the RP and MM.
Built-in voice chat puts me between a rock and a hard place. It's the one aspect of Pantheon that I'm least looking forward to. If I want to preserve the immersive quality of the game, it largely forces me to solo and to be anti-social.
I think it's too much to expect that in general pickup groups on most servers that the players are going to behave any differently in voice chat than if they were playing Call of Duty. On the other hand, perhaps on dedicated RP servers, maybe we could expect certain decorum to be followed by everyone in voice chat. Maybe we need a shorthand for groups who are discouraging free-for-all open chat. If the community could come up with some sort of definition/model of acceptable voice chat behaviour for immersive grouping we'd have some sort of convention in place. We'd be a step closer to redefining "anti-social behaviour" to mean unwanted public behaviour rather than making loners out of players.
Maybe I'm just too old school and I'm out of touch with modern gamers?
Hmm personally I like feeling a part of most of the chats around me, cuz i'm annoying like that.
So while I might have a vent for my group/guild, there's still general chat, trade chat, noob help chat, etc. that I would see myself typing in.
If VR truly builds the awesome community they seem to be planning on, I imagine others might join me in these typing chats. If anything the vent will allow you to talk to more groups of people at the same time, because you spend no time actually having to type to the people you need to talk to on a momen'ts notice (such as the raid leader). Have you ever needed to quickly erase what you were saying to go type in a more time sensitive chat?
If vent is your only option you really can't keep up with more than about 2 chat groups. Typed chats have convenient back logs of everything everyone in the chat has said, plus anything they linked, that you can catch up with on your leisure. But again, covering your most immediate chat needs with voice chat can only benefit your ability to chat in more places at the same time, IMO.
I'm a total fan of promoting both forms of chat. If you want to RP and you suck at it vocally, then just turn off the voice chat. If you need to talk with someone NOW, then turn it on. I personally feel that positive communication between players is the single most important throwback to old style social rpgs that VR can make. Today, we have more capability in game conversation then we did even back then. That can only be a good thing in a good community=)
Anyone that you force to RP with you is going to suck at it to a point where they break your immersion anyways.
I should also point out that downtime helps with more than just socialization. It makes fighting into a bigger choice because you have an actual negative (downtime) to consider. It also naturally assists in the difficulty of strategizing things like camps. Finally, it prevents a group from camping too much in an area. I'm sure there's other stuff too.
Yeah, I'd be fine with raid-leaders using it (and you could just listen to instruction unless a main tank or whatever) and in groups of friends, but I'd much prefer it to the exception and be 'outside' the game via third party apps.
If it were to be an accepted 'norm' and 'part of' the game I think it would effectively exclude a lot of the old-school charm.
I can really see this being one of those issues where there's a clash with newer players who see it as totally de facto.
I think the solution is similar to the community concensus on loot rules... Discuss it at the start of the group. As long as everyone knows and is on the same page when the group kicks off, there is no drama.
OPTION 1
"Hey guys, were camping the king today, Loot is "dont be a douche" and voice chat is optional"
OPTION 2
"Hey guys, I am after the last drop for my epic. Loot is free for all. I only need my last drop. PLEASE be on voice, if we mess up the encounter I lose the components Ive been camping for the last month!"
OPTION 3
"Hark fair maiden! wilt thou accompany me into 'yon dungeon?" (Barry White responds in voice) "Ohh yeah, I'm here for you baby."
BeaverBiscuit said:Hmm personally I like feeling a part of most of the chats around me, cuz i'm annoying like that.
So while I might have a vent for my group/guild, there's still general chat, trade chat, noob help chat, etc. that I would see myself typing in.
If VR truly builds the awesome community they seem to be planning on, I imagine others might join me in these typing chats. If anything the vent will allow you to talk to more groups of people at the same time, because you spend no time actually having to type to the people you need to talk to on a momen'ts notice (such as the raid leader). Have you ever needed to quickly erase what you were saying to go type in a more time sensitive chat?
If vent is your only option you really can't keep up with more than about 2 chat groups. Typed chats have convenient back logs of everything everyone in the chat has said, plus anything they linked, that you can catch up with on your leisure. But again, covering your most immediate chat needs with voice chat can only benefit your ability to chat in more places at the same time, IMO.
I'm a total fan of promoting both forms of chat. If you want to RP and you suck at it vocally, then just turn off the voice chat. If you need to talk with someone NOW, then turn it on. I personally feel that positive communication between players is the single most important throwback to old style social rpgs that VR can make.
Anyone that you force to RP with you is going to suck at it to a point where they break your immersion anyways.
I should also point out that downtime helps with more than just socialization. It makes fighting into a bigger choice because you have an actual negative (downtime) to consider. It also naturally assists in the difficulty of strategizing things like camps and also prevents a group from camping too much in an area. I'm sure there's other stuff too.
"I'm a total fan of promoting both forms of chat" Ordinarily I would agree, but the problem here is they aren't compatible. If you don't want to chat but the rest of the group do, you are excluded from all the strategising and socialising. You don't want to just not talk, you don't want to heat that huge scarey Ogre warrior's 'real' 13-year-old squeaking and shouting at his mom to bring him more Cheesy Poofs, but then they discuss how to apporach the next encounter and you die because they don't bother typing it for you.
"throwback to old style social rpgs" But those were almost always with friends. With a group of RL friends I probably would use voice, but not with a PUG.
"downtime helps with more than just socialization" Yes and you can do all that in voice chat while fighting. Very little downtime is actually *needed* like it was when the alternative was speed-typing between pulls.
A controversial topic for sure. I suggest you read/join these topics:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5235/does-voice-chat-ruin-immersion
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6480/will-voice-chat-be-preferred
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2025/what-is-your-approach-to-voice-chats
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5427/voice-chat-brainstorming
I do not want in game VC and honestly would be unlikely to play the game if VC is the primary source of communication for casual/pickup groups. Just watching videos on YouTube of Xbox Live sessions makes my skin crawl.
I think of VC is something that if people want to use it, like for guilds or close friends, then use a third party program. Why try to reinvent the wheel to implement in game VC? VR would be spending a lot of time and resources working on implementing and maintaining VC systems when there are plenty of 3rd party programs that guilds will probably prefer to use anyways.
There's also a difference between "VC friendly" and "VC forced". I have no problem if people want to use VC, none at all. I just don’t want to use it. If VR wants to support the VC community, more power to them. Just don’t force me to be sitting around LFG for hours because I don’t want to join groups that are using VC.
And yes, I do think that having an in game VC system would encourage more people to use it, which would spill over into casual relationships. By limited VC to 3rd party apps, the usage would be more likely kept to tight communities of players/guilds/friends and not for casual purposes.
My number one priority in finding a guild will be one that emphasizes use of typed chat over voice chat (perhaps with the exception of raids). I will hope that in PUGs as with most MMOs chat will normally be typed. I won't repeat the negatives of voice chat mentioned above but I heartily agree that while it may work well, it often works ...less than well ....especially when it isn't a regular group where people know eachother and expect to group again (and thus have a greater incentive not to be too annoying).
The word immersion is greatly overused and misused but especially on a roleplaying server I do NOT want to hear the deep male voice from the tiny female character or the whiny 12 year-old voice from the aged and wise character.
Finding other people that avoid voice chat like the plague is one of my main reasons for tentatively planning to play on a roleplaying server, other things being equal and if that choice is available. Reduced number of terrible names is another reason.
They just added a voice chat option to League of Legends and I am really enjoying it. Not having to use discord or talk.gg is awesome, but honestly most people don't use it unless they know each other well.
Everyone seems to think that all groups will start with group chat, but I don't think that is the case. You won't be forced to listen or speak. It will be entirely your choice to participate in voice chat or not.
I feel like your discomfort has more to do with personal fear of something new (neophobia, a super common affliction in this country) than any actual threat to the game. I can almost guarentee that it will only add to the game, especially at later levels when the content is challenging and requires focus.
Like many here, I have zero interest in listening to 90% of the people I will end up playing with, but I am not at all scared that I will be left out or have a lesser experience or something like that.
bigdogchris said:VR would be spending a lot of time and resources working on implementing and maintaining VC systems when there are plenty of 3rd party programs that guilds will probably prefer to use anyways.
This is false. Voice chat is exceedingly simple compared to the vast majority of the systems VR already has in place. They could literally cut and paste most of the code.
Xbachs said:Everyone seems to think that all groups will start with group chat, but I don't think that is the case. You won't be forced to listen or speak. It will be entirely your choice to participate in voice chat or not.
Yes, participating in voice chat is a choice, but that's a problem in and of iteself. When half of the group is in voice chat and the other half isn't, how do you effectively communicate strategy/pulls/where you're going next, etc.? It seems like it would be obvious to simply type it in chat for those not in voice, but that often doesn't happen. LoTRO is a good example. It had built in voice chat, and it was common to have the members of the group that were not in voice clueless as to what was going on. And outside of raids, LoTRO was run-of-the-mill easy peasy group fights. It seems Pantheon will be a bit more challenging, which could present a problem when half the group doesn't know what's going on.
Xbachs, neophobia has nothing to do with it for most of us. Wanting to hear the game sounds (they do help in combat in most MMOs) as we play is not neophobia. Wanting to hear the game music is not neophobia. Wanting to relax and listen to our own music is not neophobia. Being in a place where it is hard to hear or where people are sleeping or working and where headphones are not a good option (we may need to be able to hear real world things like spouse, children, parents) is not neophobia. Not wanting to hear voices that do not even remotely resemble the characters they come from is not neophobia. Having bad hearing is not neophobia.
I am not saying that many people don't enjoy voice chat, but your extreme overgeneralization about the rather large number of people that don't want voice chat is off-base.
I can almost guarantee that your "almost guarantee" is quite inaccurate for many players.
As to "you won't be forced to listen or speak" this is literally true in that you can always leave the group/raid/guild or even the game. None of us is *forced* to do anything.
But some groups will require use of voice chat by all members and boot those that do not use it. If you are saying this isn't true your MMO experience has been very different from that of many of us.
And some that do not require members to talk will require them to listen.
And some will use it for many things and even if they do not boot people that can only type it will be very limited aqnd frustrating to be on the outside not knowing much oif what is going on.
The purpose of this post isn't to argue against use of voice chat it is to suggest that those arguing in favor of voice chat be a bit more aware that the issue isn't nearly as one sided as you may assume and that those that disagreeing with you are not suffering from an "infliction" as Xbachs rather indelicately posits.
Eriugena said:Yes, participating in voice chat is a choice, but that's a problem in and of iteself. When half of the group is in voice chat and the other half isn't, how do you effectively communicate strategy/pulls/where you're going next, etc.? It seems like it would be obvious to simply type it in chat for those not in voice, but that often doesn't happen. LoTRO is a good example. It had built in voice chat, and it was common to have the members of the group that were not in voice clueless as to what was going on. And outside of raids, LoTRO was run-of-the-mill easy peasy group fights. It seems Pantheon will be a bit more challenging, which could present a problem when half the group doesn't know what's going on.
Isn't it all just part of the fun? If your group sucks, get a new group. If you don't like hearing some 30-going-on-13 rage about his cat then find a guild of mature adults to play with. The real beauty of PFR is that you actually choose who you play with, and your choices will actually have an impact on your gaming success.
Also remember that PRF is going to be challenging, not like LOTR or WoW or any of the games where you don't need to communicate to win. In PRF you will need to communicate to win, and my guess is that your fingers will be greatful when you remember how much time and typing goes into organizing six people without voice chat.
Xbachs said:...I feel like your discomfort has more to do with personal fear of something new (neophobia, a super common affliction in this country) than any actual threat to the game. I can almost guarentee that it will only add to the game, especially at later levels when the content is challenging and requires focus. ...Having used voice chat since Roger Wilco and White Pine / CuSeeMe , it's most certainly not neophobia, for me and mine.
I just hate listening to people natter on about politics, religion, sex, crime, violence, drugs, money, employment, unemployment, their terrible family/pet/kids/mate/ex-mate, welfare, taxes, housing, opinion debates, economic problems, social problems, foreign policy, domestic policy, sports and any other non-game related subjects, when I'm trying to play the game to the best of my ability. I mean, sure, if you want to go join a public General chat room and talk about all your RL stuff, by all means, feel free to do that. I won't be there, and more power to whoever enjoys that. There are even times when I am waiting on something in-game or doing something relaxing where I would enjoy such conversations that are on-topic in a General setting.
But when I'm trying to eke out the last drop of healing, damage, or threat generation from my character, and someones kids are screaming, someones dog is barking, and someone is complaining about their mortgage? No thanks. I'll take sweet silence any day over that. :)
Dorotea,
"I feel like" isn't an accusation. Despite your aggressive reading of my post, I still believe my feeling is true.
You are right, none of us are forced to do anything - but that kind of statement is just sophism and doesn't really mean anything in context.
My real point is that, as I stated, In PRF you will need to communicate to win, and I think you will find that the ammount of communication needed is going to restrict the usefullness of typing.
But hey, I have been wrong before.
I cant count how many games where 1/2 the team is in VC and the other 1/2 is using the chat window. IMO I think VC is needed in the modern age and if you want to get new fans you need modern systems. Pantheon will not last 10 years + with just the support of gamers from 1999. Also if you really need to be in VC for a group, just dont join them if thats your problem. Everyone has the option to say no.
vjek said:I just hate listening to people natter on about politics, religion, sex, crime, violence, drugs, money, employment, unemployment, their terrible family/pet/kids/mate/ex-mate, welfare, taxes, housing, opinion debates, economic problems, social problems, foreign policy, domestic policy, sports and any other non-game related subjects.
I couldn't agree more. I just don't agree that giving the community the option to use voice chat poses a threat to people who prefer text. The option is already there through third party applications, all VR is doing is making it easier on those of us who see the benefit in voice chat. Any problem you would run into concerning voice chat would exist even if VR didn't build it into the game.
Every argument I read is just: "I want VR to make it more complicated for the majority of players to communicate because voice chat makes me anxious." Seriously, just turn it off if you dont like it.
Bazgrim said:A controversial topic for sure. I suggest you read/join these topics:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5235/does-voice-chat-ruin-immersion
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6480/will-voice-chat-be-preferred
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2025/what-is-your-approach-to-voice-chats
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5427/voice-chat-brainstorming
Dangit I search-failed :^(
Thanks Bazza ;)
I don't think voicechat is optional if it is included in the base game. That is sort of like saying "The minimap is optional" or "Using the teleport is optional". Let's just be real for a minute, voicechat is superior to text for combat and Pantheon is going to be an MMORPG focusing on combat. The players who prefer to use text are likely doing it for immersion or roleplay reasons I know that's why I personally avoid voicechat in MMORPGs as much as possible. Yes voicechat is more efficient to communicate especially mid fight, but for 90% of MMORPG content even the lower tier raids voicechat is not a must to complete the content. And like vjek said I really don't care to listen to a lot of the noise in voicechat it can get downright annoying, it is a lot easier to ignore text than some whacko screaming in the mic.
Things will happen with or withouth the ingame feature, but they will happen less if it's not included.
This subject seems sensible, not because the choice or even the subject itself, but because people are too enticed to their opinion and just want to push it over the others.
I don't think anything need a VC included, simply because it's not relevant to any task you have to do, and because turning VC on is a major noise on many situation, and will cause exclusion by a way or another. You can't allways use VC, if you're not alone, if you're in a quiet environment, if your connection sucks, if it's late night. There are many reason not to turn VC from time to time while there are none to turn off typing.
How many people are typing what they say vocaly to other group members ? How many will accept to shut down VC to adapt to some player not fluent or not able to understand properly what is said in vocal ?
Maybe it will be less the case in NA servers, but in europe there are like, 10 different languages and it's unmanageable for people to understand each other if they choose to do it with VC. Since the game promote community, it doesn't need to promote exclusion, seclusion and other type of natural happening social behaviour, embolded by group effects.
VC is not required, not even mandatory necessary for raiding, how much usefull information is vocally transmitted in a raid or group content ? Most of what is said is just junk, jokes and such, and people raided far before VC became a norm of some sort, not only in EQ, but also in Wow that introduced a raid heavy era of content.
To quote someone :
Every argument I read is just: "I want VR to make it more complicated for the majority of players to communicate because voice chat makes me anxious." Seriously, just turn it off if you dont like it.
First, what you are reading is not what is written, but might by heavily influenced by what you consider of the opposite opinion.
Second, Turning out something that is considered as a norm and an innate feature of the game will not just "reach convenience" or the player, as if no one is willing to type anything written, he will end up grouping with a bunch of mute people. Something that happens A LOT in current MMO's, get matched with a bunch of mute guys, do content, disband. I take time to say hello, to be polite and ask for necessary information and communication, but people don't answer 80% of the time, because they don't need to and it will give them no benefit. The same will happen if VC become a feature.
Third, voice chat is killing concentration, and immersion. VC users tends to speak constantly to fill the void, from casual things to things you really don't care about. They concentrate on what they say and they miss out important things because "hey I was just finishing my speech". I've never, in close to 20 years of MMO's, be in a VC that is just a tool for important and urgent situation, and not a simple tool of constant chatting.
Fourth, it kills ambiant sounds, music, and whatever makes the game immersive on a sound scale. Which is contrary to what I search in games, a feeling of immersion.
Fifth, I do work, see and meet people everyday. I get my plenty of chat everyday and the evening when I play, I do want to have some calm and relaxing time. I can read, type, play, but hearing people I don't really know talking while It's my moment of relaxation, will be unconvenient. And I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation.
Sixth, roleplaying. Yeah roleplaying in VC is really bad. The idea between roleplaying, is not to consider who is playing but what he is playing. Just like most tabletop games have a hard time beeing serious or just roleplay, beeing more about booze and roll scores, roleplay in VC is not bringing benefits, and also make roleplay private which is not counseled while on a roleplay server.
Seventh, let's face it. Other players are not your friends, your pals and buddies. They might become with time, playing together and trust. But they aren't at start and while it is comprehensive you want to chat in VC with your friends, doing so with perfect unknown people is more bizarre than healthy, to me.
Let's not just scale everything down to current console standards.
Checking other threads, it seems VC is 'in'.
Kilsin said, back in Feb 2017, "we will be implementing voice chat to be an option for people to use in groups, raids and guilds".
I guess that's that.
I'll see how much, if I don't use it, I end up getting excluded from socialising and strategising, though I'm pretty sure I know how it will go...
Maybe I can pursuade them in Alpha that the default should be OFF at least...
Voice chat is optional, if someone asks you to hop in and you don't want to then say: "Sorry, my headphones broke and the baby is sleeping. I can't have sound right now."
It's definitely not going to be a majority of people using it either, even games where communication is paramount like Overwatch or Rainbow Six see that a majority of players do not use voice chat and often don't even join the voice channel to listen when they can avoid it.
If you take it upon yourself to know the area you are in, the mobs/bosses, and your class then you will be fine and know what you personally need to do in the group. You won't have to listen to other chat in voice.
Finally, if you find yourself with abysmal luck and somehow encounter many groups requiring it then it would be a good time to use the planned Pantheon friend finding service to make friends with as many people as you want that don't use or rarely use voice.
i really really hope we'll be able to turn off completely voice chat, it's totally immersion breaking for me and it annoys me to heard people talk ingame.
i raided in EQ1 without voice chat and it was perfectly doable, none of my guildmates were using teamspeak or whatever vocal software back then (talking about 2003-2007), and we were able to coordinate our raids just fine, a briefing on tactic before the pulls, few wipes needed to learn the fight/locations/layout/younameit and then we just do it, when everyone knows what he/she has to do, it's doable.
for me vocal chat is not mandatory at all, and should just be an box checkable option in the options settings.